I have read on a website about indonesian expats that an indonesian woman if married
to foreigner can not own any property in indonesia? does it mean this that we can
not buy a house on my wifes`s name?
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Different Provinces of Indonesia have various laws concerning land ownership (Hak
Milik). For example, it would not surprise me that if in Aceh, where a modified
Sharia law exists, women would not be allowed to have land ownership regardless
of their marriage to another Indonesian or a foreigner. I don’t know if that is
fact, I’m just offering that as a hypothetical example.
In Bali, Indonesian women, regardless of what Province in Indonesia they are from
are allowed to have land in their names if they are single or married to another
Indonesian or a foreigner.
Wherever you are planning to buy property in Indonesia it is essential to consult
with an attorney. A notaris is simply not good enough...you need an attorney in
the area where the land is located who is knowledgeable both with local customs,
the land office, and the courts. Regardless of whether or not your Indonesian wife
and you currently have children through that marriage, it is essential to have the
attorney draw up a last will and testament stipulating to whom in her family (Indonesian)
the Hak Milik would revert to in the event of her death, and that for you as the
surviving non Indonesian spouse, a Hak Pakai, or land use agreement would become
in effect. This might all seem complicated, but a good attorney can sort it all
out for you and the fees you will pay for the expertise of an attorney, and the
documents they prepare is well worth the cost of very unpleasant surprises later
down the road. Cheers.
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I was of the understanding (though I could be wrong), that regardless of where you
are in Indonesia, if your wife wishes to purchase land as Hak Milik, because she
is married to a foreigner, you need to have a pre-nup that meets certain criteria.
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As mentioned earlier, various Provinces of Indonesia may have different requirements,
but here in Bali, that is just urban legend. My wife has five different pieces of
property in her name (five Hak Milik) all purchased after we were married, all duly
recorded, and all very legal. If you have doubts, then contact an attorney.
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BaliLife is right unfortunately. Nothing to fear, but in case of trouble it could
be used against your wife.
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Sorry Bert, but you can’t just get away with a comment, “BaliLife is right unfortunately”
and a glib, “that’s it!”
Good grief! You know Ibu Murni here in Ubud, if not personally, but by reputation.
She’s had a number of “western husbands” and it would be entertaining as hell for
me to witness anyone telling her all that land and businesses she owns (post marriages)
is really not hers! Hell, that would be an Ubud revolution!
You know as well as I know that land ownership in Bali is also tied into Banjar
adat. If that is where you are headed by your last comment, then why not explore
that as well? I’m game if you are.
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Hallo,
there must be something wrong.
As we have been told since many years and still now from our notaris and also from
foreigners incl. one property-agent from Australia living and working here, an indonesian
woman married with a foreigner cannot own land because of her marriage 1/2 of the
land belongs to her foreign husband.
And that is not allowed according to indonesian law.
Am I right or are there other new possibilities?
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The husband has to sign that he cancels his rights on the property, that's how it
works according to my knowledge. That's all fine, as long as the wife is alive.
If she dies, her family may come up with claims on the property.
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No ... that is not right, but there is a quirk, which Bert alluded to, but did not
elaborate.
First off, forget, forget, and forget some more what a bloody notaris tells you,
let alone another foreigner (which would include me). Consult an attorney...a lawyer,
and as I’ve said a billion times...a lawyer who resides and practices law in the
same regency as where the property in question is located! A notaris CANNOT argue
a case in a regency court!
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Bert mentioned only one hint “ ...in case of trouble.” What could be meant by Bert’s
term “trouble?” Well, one example would be if the couple (mixed) within the village
failed to participate in fund raising events for the maintenance of the likely many
pura (temples) within the village. Another form of trouble could be abuse against
staff hired from within the village to work at one’s home. Another form of “very
big trouble” could mean drugs or pedophilia, and another big trouble problem could
simply be getting the pembantu pregnant...an especially BIG problem if that girl
was the daughter of the head of the village! If you are a foreign male, married
to a Balinese lady, (or any other Indonesian) then good luck if your wife dies.
Without the respect and appreciation of the village you live in, not to mention
a strong family of in-laws, then indeed, the adat portion of your land situation
can, as Bert alluded, go wrong. BUT...I have never heard of this “going wrong” against
ANY Balinese woman who held a Hak Milik. This idea of land being taken away from
any Balinese, be they man or woman is preposterous, and I challenge ANYONE with
a verifiable story of any such incident in Bali to share that story right here,
and with details that can be verified.
The bottom line here is that rarely will a regency court (or the Polda, who is meant
to enforce the ruling), go directly against village adat. That is a point which
is often woefully misunderstood on this forum, and all the other forums I have read.
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Roy - you write as though there are a sound set of laws that have been adequately
tested over the years and have been subject to a transparent non-corrupt process.
We all know in Bali, just like the rest of Indonesia, money talks. What Bert referred
to is absolutely correct. While all is well she might not have any problems, but
if somebody starts sniffing around like so many Indonesians do in search of a pay-off,
the fact that she owns land and is married to a foreigner without a 'contract' or
'pre-nup' that removes any claim the spouse has over the land, then yes - "there
could be trouble". I personally don't trust Indonesian law, therefor consulting
an attorney is not necessary - all they would advise me on is what may be written
in Indonesian Law which carries about as much weight as what was written on page
4 of this month's Cosmo or page 6 of last month's Woman's Weekly. When it comes
to testing any Indonesian law, ESPECIALLY in regard to non capital crime matters
such as this, your rights mean nothing - all that matters is who's willing to pay
a larger bribe. That includes your Banjar - I don't care how special you think your
relationship is with them.. When they see the opportunity to squeeze a buck out
of you, they will - thinking otherwise is just naive.
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Practically you will find hardly any problems. But if it comes down to it....
Plenty of notaries I have consulted say the same.
If your wife ever has a legal dispute, it goes beyond Adat (It can) and they pull
the "foreign mixed ownership" card....
There is a difference in Adat practices and Indonesian Laws, and normally things
are solved Adat wise, but things can go beyond that.
I have seen this in my wife's village.
There was a "problem", and the police was called. Kepala Desa told the police however
that these things are solved "in the village". Police kindly explained that the
"problem" concerned an Indonesian Law problem, and they would take the case gladly,
but if the village could solve it, it was fine too.
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Bert, are we discussing the right of a Balinese woman to own property when married
to a foreigner, or the foreign husband’s “right” for Hak Pakai after she is dead?
As you know, these are very different issues.
BaliLife, you write,
“While all is well she might not have any problems, but if somebody starts sniffing
around like so many Indonesians do in search of a pay-off, the fact that she owns
land and is married to a foreigner without a 'contract' or 'pre-nup' that removes
any claim the spouse has over the land, then yes - "there could be trouble".”
You are totally wrong, and you clearly have NO idea how things work within a banjar
in Bali. What you would like to think could happen, never would! There is NO way
in hell that anyone “sniffing around”, or whatever could think of stealing land
from a Balinese woman who just so happened to be married to a foreigner and with
land in her name! Good grief! Just what do YOU really know about Bali??!! Just where
on earth is this unmitigated baloney coming from?
BaliLife continues...
“I personally don't trust Indonesian law, therefor (sic) consulting an attorney
is not necessary.”
Good Grief! AND Good Luck! The whole point of an attorney is to navigate you through
the murky waters! Are you serious with that comment?
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HEY! You guys win. After all, why should I care anyway? You guys handle your affairs
the way you see fit, and I’ll handle my affairs the way I see fit. There is absolutely
NO point in my arguing this topic any further.
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BERT! To hell with the nortaris! They DO NOT PRACTICE LAW! OK? Mengerti? They cannot
argue a case in court! They can ONLY serve as a witness. Geez...just ask one of
them!!!
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Bert says,
"If your wife ever has a legal dispute, it goes beyond Adat (It can) and they pull
the "foreign mixed ownership" card.... "
That might be the case in your village Bert, but in my village? NO WAY!
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Also in "your" village my friend. Things don't always end with Adat. Depends a bit
on parties involved....
And as far as your distrust of Notaries concerning legal advice, up2you.
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Of course not Roy - your banjar respects you, loves you, worships you and sees you
as one of their own.. None of which (if true) would likely stop them from taking
your last dime if presented with the opportunity. Again, you're obviously as naive
a mouse going for a chunk of cheese. I think it's nice at least that you feel you're
so special, as misguided as you may be.
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"Also in "your" village my friend. Things don't always end with Adat."
How do you "know" Bert? Do you live in Bunutan-Kedewatan? NO. In fact, you don't
even live within the Gianyar Regency.
What goes on up your way is something I expect you to have great knowledge about.
It's your turf, and you should know.
And as far as your distrust of Notaries concerning legal advice, up2you.
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Indeed, it is up to me, and the fact remains, they cannot argue a case in court.
They are not lawyers Bert, and I think I know you well enough that when the push
becomes a shove, it won't be a notaris you call on. Or, am I wrong?
You paint a too negative image here
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I despise the image that is regularly painted in colors of greed.
Its not so. Yes tourists are cheated, profits are made, like anywhere else. Try
Amsterdam...
Especially when you are living in Bali, and have a good relationship with your hosts....
If you don't, well....
It is my experience, that foreigners should be more afraid of other foreigners than
the locals....
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bert, as you probably know, I respect you and your viewpoint (certainly more so
than i do the other main contributor to this thread) - and yes, i'm likely being
overly negative purely in defiance of roy's nonsense. for that i apologize. but
still having said that bali is full of people wanting to take your buck - but that's
the same anywhere in the world. the question is, how credible is the legal system
that protects the rights of individuals? i think in the case of indonesia overall,
one can safely sum up, that it's not very credible..
and the fact remains, they cannot argue a case in court
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they could if they bought a law degree - it would likely only cost USD $800 from
a reputable institution..
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